Showing posts with label 230. Show all posts
Showing posts with label 230. Show all posts

Monday, October 26, 2026

Google gets 230 protection for fraudulent apps in Google Play

Hemry v. Google, LLC, 2026 WL 2909299, No. 26-cv-01611-PCP (N.D. Cal. Sept. 28, 2026)

Hemry downloaded a fraudulent investment app, Watsans, from the Google Play Store, Google’s main avenue for Android operating system smartphone users to download third-party applications. He sued for violations of the UCL and FAL and common law negligence. Google successfully asserted §230, which is still doing some of its core job.

Google Play’s help pages tout its safety and security and the presence of “safe, high-quality apps,” and Hemry alleged he relied on this. He also alleged that scam apps often make developers’ names include some reference to “5 [stars]” so that users think that the apps themselves have received thousands of five-star reviews from actual users, and that the Watsans page within the Google Play Store exhibited this and other features suggestive of a scam application that should have put Google on notice of the application’s true nature.

The statutory claims were “at least theoretically based on a duty that is distinct from its duties as a publisher—namely, Google’s obligation to ensure that its own representations are not false and misleading.” But a “general statement” of a company’s content moderation policy “is not a specific promise, but a [mere] description of its moderation policy, and thus protected from liability under § 230.” “Google could put apps through safety reviews and check, scans apps to protect users from malware, forbid harmful apps, and ask that all apps comply with all relevant laws, while still hosting dangerous apps despite its best efforts.” The appearance of Watsans in the Google Play store didn’t justify an inference that Google was not conducting the promised 10,000 safety checks or requiring evidence of regulatory compliance, as it allegedly promised to do.

The negligence claim was also barred. Hemry alleged that Google was negligent when it undertook to review third-party apps but failed to exercise reasonable care in performing that undertaking. “The Ninth Circuit has repeatedly emphasized that Section 230 protects an interactive computer service provider from liability to the extent that liability ‘would require [the service] to actively vet and evaluate third-party’ content.” The court noted the moderators’ dilemma: “permitting liability on such a theory could discourage such providers from engaging in any form of content moderation—the negative disincentive that Congress specifically sought to eliminate through the enactment of Section 230.”


Thursday, September 17, 2026

Amicus in section 230 false light case

 The EFF, Eric Goldman, Jess Miers, Mark Lemley, and I filed a brief in Does 1-10 v. Freesites in the Fourth Circuit, arguing that context--the other third-party content surrounding a post--cannot be the basis for a false light claim against a host site. 

Monday, May 25, 2026

contract, 230, and lack of specificity defeat "chat scam" claims against OnlyFans

N.Z. v. Fenix Int’l Ltd., 2026 WL 1425183, No. 8:24-cv-01655-FWS-SSC (C.D. Cal. May 19, 2026)

Plaintiffs sued OnlyFans (Fenix) and other entities who manage OnlyFans models based on allegations that they concealed the fact that plaintiffs weren’t authentically chatting with OnlyFans models, despite the centrality of the promise of authentic personal interaction to OnlyFans. One of OnlyFans’ “Core Values” is the following: “Giving creators control to own and monetize their content and to foster authentic relationships with their followers and fanbase.” Also, OnlyFans urges Fans to subscribe to specific Creators using the following language: “SUBSCRIBE AND GET THESE BENEFITS: Full access to this user’s content [/] Direct message with this user [/] Cancel your subscription at any time.”

The agency defendants allegedly “sell their services to OnlyFans Creators with promises that they can increase a Creator’s revenue exponentially—without the Creator ever having to actually do what OnlyFans promises: ‘directly connect’ with Fans.” They allegedly “contract with ‘Chatters’ to conduct most, if not all, of the communications between the Creators and the Fans. Without the Fans’ knowledge, the Chatters impersonate the Creators when direct messaging with Fans.” “Agencies even provide Chatters with actual ‘scripts’ similar to those used by telemarketers and call center employees, which give Chatters a specific workflow to follow in order to maximize the amount of money extracted from any given Fan.”

In recent years, agencies have allegedly developed specialized tools to facilitate the use of a single OnlyFans account by a team of Chatters. Further alleged: “OnlyFans is either aware of, or intentionally ignorant to, the use of CRM software on its platform—not least because its use violates OnlyFans’ Terms of Service—but chooses to do nothing to prevent the use of this software because of the increased revenues that CRM software facilitates.” And: “OnlyFans knew, and should have known, that its Creators were using Chatters to engage with Fans— including based on the revenue being generated by those Creators; the number of direct messages with Fans; the number of different login sessions to a given Creator’s account, often from many different locations and IP addresses; and the number of Fan complaints (which OnlyFans ignored).” As a result, they alleged, “the ‘Chatter Scams’ involve massive breaches of confidentiality and privacy violations in which intimate communications and private and/or personal information about Fans—including photos and videos—are distributed and/or accessible to numerous unauthorized parties.”

Plaintiffs sought to assert various claims against OnlyFans and the agencies, including RICO, VPPA, breach of contract, fraud, and California UCL/FAL claims.

§ 230: The VPPA and RICO claims against OnlyFans were barred because they sought to hold OnlyFans liable solely for facilitating, or failing to moderate, communications through the OnlyFans platform. (The other RICO claims failed because they were RICO claims.)

However, the breach of contract claim depended on claims of breach of  a contractual promise that OnlyFans “will use reasonable care and skill in providing OnlyFans” by collecting “data sufficient to identify Chatter-operated accounts—including multiple simultaneous logins from disparate geographic locations—and failed to act on this information.” That wasn’t seeking to hold OnlyFans liable solely for facilitating communications but rather to require it to ensure the users are operating OnlyFans properly and that OnlyFans acts on the simultaneous logins. (Eric Goldman will hate that!)

And, to the extent that misrepresentation claims were based on OnlyFans’ own representations that users can “ ‘direct message’ ..., chat ‘1 on 1’ ..., and build ‘genuine’ and ‘authentic’ connections” with Creators, those weren’t barred. The claims wouldn’t require OnlyFans to monitor third-party communications to avoid liability. (But the breach of contract claim would!) Anyway, although “content moderation [may be] one possible solution” for OnlyFans to fulfill its alleged duties, “the underlying duty being invoked by the Plaintiffs … is the promise” or representation itself.

VPPA: The VPPA provides that “[a] video tape service provider who knowingly discloses, to any person, personally identifiable information concerning any consumer of such provider shall be liable to the aggrieved person.” The Ninth Circuit has adopted the ordinary person standard to determine what constitutes PII, holding that “personally identifiable information means only that information that would readily permit an ordinary person to identify a specific individual’s video-watching behavior.” Under the TOS, plaintiffs agreed and acknowledged that their “[c]ontent may be viewed by individuals that recognise [their] identity” and that OnlyFans is “not in any way ... responsible” if Plaintiffs “are identified from [their] Content.” And plaintiffs failed to sufficiently allege OnlyFans’ knowledge.

However, they sufficiently pled that the agency defendants knowingly disclosed PII: they alleged that they shared personal information in chats with Creators, including their full legal name and photos of their face, and that the Chatter Scams function by “creating a communication history viewable by Chatters” which consists of “intimate knowledge of the Fan’s personal information, conversation history, and preferences,” and most importantly, “the specific content that they requested and/or viewed.” The agency defendants allegedly disclosed PII from Fans to Chatters by sharing login information or via CRM software.

Under the VPPA, “A video tape service provider may disclose personally identifiable information concerning any consumer ... to any person if the disclosure is incident to the ordinary course of business of the video tape service provider.” At this stage, that exclusion didn’t require dismissal.

Breach of contract: the statement “ ‘Direct message with this user [Creator]’ ” wasn’t part of the TOS, which contained an integration clause stating that users have “[n]o implied licenses or other rights are granted to [them] in relation to any part of OnlyFans, save as expressly set out in the Terms of Service” and that the TOS “form the entire agreement between [Fenix International] and [the user] regarding [the user’s] access to and use of OnlyFans,” and “govern [Plaintiffs’] use of OnlyFans.”

Failure to provide the platform with reasonable care and skill: It wasn’t enough to allege that OnlyFans allowed management agencies to use Chatters to impersonate Creators because this theory of liability imposed a monitoring obligation on Fenix Defendants. Nor was merely designing and providing tools for OnlyFans users sufficient to allege a breach; plaintiffs didn’t allege how tools such as Fan spending analytics and “inter-shift notes features” enable, or were specifically designed for, the Chatter Scam.

Implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing: Failed because plaintiffs sought to impose duties beyond those incorporated in the specific terms of the alleged contract.

Also, fans were not third-party beneficiaries of the Creator TOS, which required Creators to be individuals and safeguard their accounts given its express language saying there weren’t any third-party beneficiaries.

Fraud and deceit: Also failed against OnlyFans. OnlyFans made explicit disclosures about the use of third parties, its inability to control how Fan content is used, and the materials provided to Fans.

UCL/FAL: Not sufficiently alleged against agency defendants because plaintiffs didn’t allege the specific representations at issue.


Wednesday, April 08, 2026

the continuing merger of TM and the right of publicity: court can't tell the defenses apart

Upper Deck Co. v. Pixels.com LLC, No. 3:24-cv-00923-BAS-DEB, 2026 WL 776227 (S.D. Cal. March 19, 2026)

Eric Goldman’s discussion. Upper Deck makes sports memorabilia (including sports player trading cards), and has exclusive licensing agreements with various athletes, including famous basketball player Michael Jordan, to use their names, images, and likenesses. Pixels is an online company, selling print-on-demand décor, photographs, wall art, prints, and other similar products. Pixel allows people to upload images and to sell physical prints of those images on its sites. Those included framed prints of Upper Deck’s trading cards featuring Jordan, and other prints displaying Jordan’s likeness. Upper Deck sued for false affiliation/endorsement, false advertising, and unfair competition; trademark dilution; trademark infringement; and right of publicity claims. The court mostly allowed the claims to proceed, with some subtractions.

Those subtractions included the dilution claim: Upper Deck’s registered hologram mark was not sufficiently famous among the general consuming public. However, trademark infringement claims based on the use of (non-hologram) reproductions of the hologram mark survived, despite Pixels’ argument that the one product containing the Upper Deck Hologram Mark listed on its website was never actually sold. Also, a copy of the 1986-87 Fleer Michael Jordan Rookie Card was sold at an auction for $840,000, while the framed print of that card offered for sale on Pixels’ website was priced at $70.

The same result occurred for Lanham Act false advertising and false affiliation claims based on Pixels’ advertisement and sale of products displaying Jordan’s trademarks on its website.

False advertising: The court found that Upper Deck identified a “false statement of fact” by Pixels in a “commercial advertisement about its own or another’s product,” via Pixels’ advertising of products containing Jordan’s trademarks on its website. The court analogized to the use of a kosher certification mark, which doesn’t seem to be analogous in materiality terms. Also, “the fact that some of the images are accompanied by the names of the persons uploading the images on Pixels website does not undermine the misleading nature of Pixels’ use of Jordan’s trademarks in advertising its products.” No further explanation.  

False association: “To establish proximate cause for false association claims, it is sufficient to demonstrate misuse of the relevant mark is likely to cause consumer confusion.” No materiality or harm requirement.

Upper Deck, as licensee for Jordan’s publicity rights, was also able to bring its publicity rights claims, including a publicity rights violation as a predicate violation for UCL claims (if there was no adequate remedy at law).

There were statute of limitations issues. The analogous limitations period for Lanham Act violations in California is four years; two years for the common law right of publicity; and four years for the statutory right of publicity, statutory unfair competition, and common law unfair competition. The specific images that fall within those time frames could be addressed by motions in limine.

I often tell my students that courts interpret the federal and state dilution laws as closely together as they can (with the partial exception of fame) because no one wants to do two dilution analyses, no matter whether the laws are written differently. I predicted that this would also become true of post-JDI Rogers/right of publicity defenses and here I am proven right: Apparently unable to recognize that, in theory, Rogers is the Ninth Circuit test for First Amendment limits on trademark and transformativeness is the Ninth Circuit test for First Amendment limits on the right of publicity, the court here rejects them both because Pixels is supposedly making trademark use of Upper Deck’s marks (that is, the basis recognized by JDI, but until now not part of transformativeness). And it does so because … Upper Deck’s trademarks, including Michael Jordan’s likeness, appear in the images and are thus serving as source indicators. “The pictures and photographs of Jordan displayed in Pixels’ products at issue in this action are source-identifying insofar as they contain Jordan’s Marks.” Bad reasoning all around. Pixels could still argue expressive use “insofar as it is relevant to the likelihood of confusion analysis at trial.” But ROP violations don’t require confusion—so I guess Pixels just loses?

CDA 230: Pixels is a “publisher or speaker” for advertising and curating content on its websites, but not for selling and distributing physical products. “Pixels does not create the illicit images of products uploaded and displayed on its site, and Pixels’ website search engine and content filtering tools do not contribute to the creation of those products.” This gets rid of display-only ROP and other state law violations (because the Ninth Circuit says state-law ROP claims aren’t exempted IP claims), but keeps the rest (e.g., claims based on Pixels’ contracting with vendors to manufacture and ship products, facilitating product returns, and offering a money-back guarantee).


Thursday, April 02, 2026

Meta's AI assistance to advertisers defeats Section 230, court says

Bouck v. Meta Platforms, Inc., No. 25-cv-05194-RS (N.D. Cal. Mar. 24, 2026) 

Does offering AI enhancements to deceptive ads constitute participating in what makes them illegal for purposes of avoiding section 230? This case answers "yes, relatively easily" and it should be raising flags in a lot of boardrooms.

Plaintiffs here are victims of a pump-and-dump scheme involving shares of a Chinese penny stock. The scammers initially targeted them on Facebook and Instagram through advertisements for investment groups promising handsome returns. For example, in one ad, Kevin O’Leary— “a businessman well-known for his role on Shark Tank”—appears to advertise a private group in which stock tips are shared. In another, Savita Subramanian—Bank of America’s head of U.S. equity and quantitative strategy— “looks to be promoting” spots in a “free trading training” group that boasts “95% accuracy” and 30-40% daily returns. 

Plaintiffs sued Meta for aiding and abetting fraud; negligence; breach of contract; violation of the California Unruh Civil Rights Act, Cal Civ Code § 51; and unjust enrichment, along with promissory estoppel and breach of the covenant of good faith and fair dealing as alternatives to their breach of contract claim. The court allowed the claims for aiding and abetting fraud, negligence, and unjust enrichment to proceed.

Section 230: An “information content provider” is “any person or entity that is responsible, in whole or in part, for the creation or development of information provided through . . . any other interactive computer service.” If Meta was sufficiently involved in the “creation or development” of the fraudulent ads, the court reasons, then those ads were not just “provided by” the scammers—they were also provided by Meta. Under 9th Circuit precedent, a website helps to develop unlawful content “if it contributes materially to the alleged illegality of the conduct.”

Plaintiffs’ allegations of material contribution depended on three tools Meta offers to advertisers. (1) Flexible Format: “Meta automatically optimizes the ad and shows it in the format that Meta predicts may perform best” by “selecting the specific images and other content that will be included, the layout, the platform (Facebook or Instagram), and how the ad will be displayed to a particular user (e.g., in the user’s feed, as a story, etc.).” (2) Dynamic Creative: This tool “takes multiple media, such as images and videos, and multiple ad components, such as images, videos, text, audio, and calls-to-action, and then mixes and matches them in new ways to improve . . . ad performance.” This “allows the advertiser to automatically create personalized creative variations for each person who views the ad, with results that are scalable.” (3) Advantage+ Creative: Meta uses generative AI to apply “creative enhancements” to optimize advertisements, including AI-generated text and images. “The alterations may include modifications to images (such as applying different text overlays or modifying the image background), generating variations of the ad’s text to target different audiences, and inserting ‘Call to Action’ buttons, such as a link to purchase a product or join a WhatsApp group.”

The complaint alleged that scammers used these tools at least to create different variations of ads featuring Ms. Subramanian. That was enough to plead the existence of a dispute over whether Meta “contribute[d] materially to the alleged illegality of the advertisements.” “Plaintiffs have averred that Meta participated in the construction of the ads by literally generating, using artificial intelligence, the images and text in the advertisements. That degree of participation is not protected by section 230.” In other words, “optimizing the appearance of an ad to drive engagement” was enough of a contribution to the ads’ illegality to preclude section 230 immunity. Pleading the ability to create “AI- generated text and images” “is more than enough to aver ‘that the tools affect ad content in a manner that could at least potentially contribute to their illegality.’”

Meta argued that its tools were “neutral” and that offending content was exclusively provided by the scammers. But 230 allows services to “structure the information provided by users,” not “to create the information itself.” Plaintiffs alleged that “Meta created the offending information by generating some of the false statements that tricked them into the investment scheme.”

If a scammer tells Advantage+ Creative “that he is interested in an ad promising astronomical weekly investment returns, Advantage+ Creative will spin up a slew of ads that include the provided language and other language, images, and videos it decides will be effective in promoting the user’s chosen message.” Indeed, a journalist from Reuters asked for an ad asking users if they were “interested in making 10% weekly returns.” Advantage+ Creative “generated a slew of ads saying just that and new ads with language like ‘Tired of living paycheck to paycheck? Break the cycle and start earning steady weekly income with our proven system.’ The reporter did not come up with that (patently fraudulent) language; it was all Meta.” It was at least plausible that some of the illegal content (i.e., the fraudulent statements in the ads) was created by Meta, not by the scammers.

Aiding and abetting fraud: “California has adopted the common law rule that [l]iability may ... be imposed on one who aids and abets the commission of an intentional tort if the person ... knows the other’s conduct constitutes a breach of a duty and gives substantial assistance or encouragement to the other to so act.” Meta argued that it neither had knowledge of the scammers’ conduct nor substantially assisted in the execution of their scheme. Plaintiffs alleged that Meta has been repeatedly subject to lawsuits stemming from similar schemes; that Meta itself acknowledged the proliferation of fraud using public figures and celebrities’ images; and that Meta had an “ad review system” in place to screen ads for “violation of [Meta’s] policies.”

Meta responded that knowledge that fraud is occurring generally on its platforms could not have given “actual knowledge of the specific primary wrong” at issue in this case. “In a vacuum, that argument has merit. Under California law, knowledge that something illegal is occurring on a defendant’s platform does not establish that the defendant knew of the particular illegal conduct that injured the plaintiff.” But the court accepted allegations “that when Meta saw the ads in its ad review process, Meta acquired actual knowledge of their fraudulence.”

What about the moderator’s dilemma?  “To be sure, in many cases a defendant could not be charged with actual knowledge of fraud simply because the fraud passed through a routine review process. For that reason, many cases arising in the financial fraud context have required a plaintiff bringing an aiding and abetting claim to show that the defendant had some extra knowledge about the primary fraudster in order to create an inference that the defendant knew of the fraud and passed it through the review process anyways.” But here, “no extra knowledge is required. That is because the advertisements are facially ridiculous.” [This seems like it will create a bit of a problem on the back end of proving classic fraud—where is the reasonable reliance?]

Thus, an ad showing “Savita Subramanian, one of Wall Street’s most respected market observers, purporting to offer stock tips in a WhatsApp group,” not through her employer Bank of America but promoting something called “AI Investment.” “She” touted daily potential returns that were roughly three to four times the average annual return of U.S. equity markets, all for free. “Even a cursory look would warrant suspicion that the ad is fraudulent….  If Plaintiffs succeed in convincing a jury that this ad (and others that are equally preposterous) passed Meta’s ad review process, the jury would be entitled to infer that Meta had actual knowledge of the fraud at the time the ads went out to its users.”

Meta made the obvious point that its ad review is not human review, and that automated systems don’t have the intuitive knowledge that allows this conclusion from a “cursory look.” The court found that response “confounding.” “It was Meta’s decision to use technological review tools to screen ads, and it does not now get to claim it had no idea what was going on because it tasked some software program with doing the first pass.” But … Meta did have no idea what was going on, in the sense of having specific knowledge. This really is a decision to allow general knowledge to count for liability; it penalizes Meta for having automated review instead of no review. Given that human review at Meta scale is … let’s say unlikely … then allowing this generalized knowledge to count is another blow against large online services generally.

The court also found that it was plausible that Meta acquired knowledge that it was aiding and abetting a fraud “well before the ad passed through a review system.” “At the moment a scammer asked Advantage+ Creative to generate an ad using a celebrity, a secret chat room, and the promise of unfathomable riches, there is at least a fact question on whether Meta acquired knowledge that it was aiding and abetting a fraud.” After all, “even routine operations may constitute substantial participation if done with knowledge.”

Breach of contract: Meta didn’t impose a binding contractual obligation on itself to do anything, only a duty on its users not to pollute Meta’s platforms with scam investment ads. For similar reasons, alternative claims for promissory estoppel and for breach of the covenant of good faith and fair dealing failed.

But negligence survived for the reasons above.

California’s Unruh Act provides that all individuals, regardless of race or national origin, shall be “entitled to the full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities, privileges, or services in all business establishments of every kind whatsoever.” Plaintiffs alleged that Meta’s advertising tools targeted ads featuring celebrities and investors that shared their race or national origin to make it more likely that they’d engage with the ad and succumb to the scam. “In general, a person suffers discrimination under the [Unruh] Act when the person presents himself or herself to a business with an intent to use its services but encounters an exclusionary policy or practice that prevents him or her from using those services.” Targeting is not exclusion, so there was no violation.

Unjust enrichment also survived.


Thursday, August 03, 2023

IPSC Opening Plenary Session

 Matthew Sag, Copyright Safety for Generative AI

Not addressing whether training is always fair use in every circumstance; explain how generative AI fits w/in existing law (nonexpressive uses) and identify best practices to make generative AI fairer.

Non expressive uses: reverse engineering, anti-plagiarism, search plus text data mining, snippets. Although Authors Guild didn’t discuss it, that was very much about machine learning—the endgame was more sophisticated analysis using machine learning, not just frequency tables. His theory: rights of © are defined w/r/t communication of original expression to the public. Nonexpressive uses don’t involve human enjoyment of the original expression contained in a work and don’t lead to other humans potentially enjoying that original expression. Thus, nonexpressive uses don’t interfere w/the kind of interest © is designed to protect, which is why they are such strong candidates for fair use.

But is generative AI really the same? Are the outputs copies of the training data? Copying takes place prior to training; converted into tokens and training is a process of adjusting weights in the model, not copying tokens. Info acquired is much more abstract than the training data. The output is a novel synthesis, not just a cut and paste, usually combines abstract latent features learned from training data.

But CS literature on extraction attacks exists: in successful attacks, models may be trained on many duplicates of the same work; images associated with unique text descriptions; ratio of model size to training data is relatively large. Generally the extraction attacks fail; only succeed in edge cases. These are real risks, but rare. More common: The Snoopy problem: text to image models are set up to learn attributes of ©able characters: b/c same text description paired w/relatively simple images that vary only slightly. Not limited to characters; other images repeated w/ minor variations and consistently tagged w/same keywords: Banksy’s girl holding a red balloon.

Implications: too much memorization undermines arguments in favor of fair use. Hard to argue it’s highly transformative if training data come out as output. May also have implications under fourth factor. What to do? Ten suggestions in paper, but key: (1) reasonable measures to deduplicate; (2) reasonable measures in training and deployment to reduce probability of infringement—curate/pre-processing training data; using reinforcement learning through human feedback; installing restrictions on model outputs. (3) reasonable measures to safeguard privacy interests. (4) detailed records of works used and their provenance.

Sonia Katyal, A Trademark Theory of Rebranding

Lots of rebranding out there. Cultural and economic factors (change in what the business does over time, including startup drift and embrace then rejection of crypto). Practices are undertheorized and underregulated. Not transparent/information asymmetry for consumers. Internal contradiction in TM: rebranding could be characterized as contradiction b/t law and marketplace: marketplace gives incentives to rebrand, given lack of legal regulation thereof. A single user can obfuscate its past identity from its present. Source concealment/distortion.

Most common reason: change of ownership or structure, merger, acquisition, sponsorship change, shift from private to public, demerger

Change in corporate strategy—globalization or localization, diversify or divest. Change in competitive position or external environment (attracts the most commentary). TM doctrine assumes marks are chosen for potential for perpetuity. Allows tacking of priority w/continuing commercial impression. Material alteration requires new filing. This rule facilitates information asymmetry that can harm consumers by adding information costs. Distortion: expansion of boundaries by continuing commercial impression (actual TM boundaries). Also identity concealment—Worldcom to MCI; organizational misdescription—renaming, reorganization, shell companies; source obfuscation, where FB rebrands to Meta as distraction; affiliative disinformation—broader rebranding associated w social movements.

TM law should facilitate disclosure or it will fall behind market.

Sheff: What about licensing/merchandising in this system? That deprives consumers of info in the way that you’re talking about; the law used to treat it as a kind of deception but now we all love it.

Sag: Why isn’t this like bankruptcy? Fresh start.

A: good for companies, not so good for consumers.

Alex Roberts, Multi-Level Lies: Distinctive feature is that laypeople are making advertising claims to friends, social media followers, acquaintances, etc. Sellers make money by selling product but also by recruiting others. Exploitative: 99% make no profit/lose money; stuck w/unwanted inventory; exploitative based on false promises of wealth and miracle products—the seller gets free advertising. Not surprising that sellers make false claims—they’re desperate to sell. Lack knowledge/training; rules aren’t intuitive, including risks of sharing true but unrepresentative experience. Nondisparagement clauses, some of which purport to bind family members. Indemnification clauses (likely uncollectable, but still scary). Many contracts—77%--say sellers can only use marketing claims or materials provided by company; 71% say other claims must be pre-approved (that seems contradictory). 57% say sellers could be liable for false etc. claims, but only 24% reference or explain specific rules.

Many actual sellers (convenience sample) make effectiveness claims—80% almost always/half the time; 85% make testimonial claims; 73% make data-based claims (lose 1.8 pounds/week); 86% make positive subjective claims; 78% make business opportunity claims. 59% were aware that laws/rules constrain the claims they make, mostly made aware by training or other reps from company. Did they influence how you advertise? Many people said yes, but many people skipped the respondents—47% said they almost always follow the rules. Many expressed uncertainty that the rules applied to them. 46% said desire to sell outweighed desire to comply; didn’t expect enforcement. 37% said the company didn’t say anything about restrictions on claims or said that there were no restrictions.

Takeaway: companies, not lay sellers, must be held liable for false, misleading, or noncompliant claims disseminated by sellers. FTC and FDA think this already!

More enforcement; more training for MLMs with interactive onboarding/continuing education. Expand social media monitoring.

Contract issues: limiting arbitration and class action waivers would help; classify sellers as employees? Platforms should enforce own TOS against these claims.

Katyal: are the influencer rules different/should this be folded in?

A: biggest difference is that influencers get paid by the seller and MLM sellers don’t. Affiliate marketers get a cut of sales; that’s similar to how MLM works, so it’s pretty easy to see how they fit in, but you don’t really need that piece because FTC has said elsewhere that the companies are liable for claims made by sellers—the case law doesn’t require the endorsement piece to hold the company liable for the claims.

Q: endgame?

A: even with the ones that aren’t snake oil, and many are, there are risks of false income claims that should be guarded against. FTC could go harder against supplement market in general; FTC/FDA should team up more often.

Christopher S. Yoo, Common Carriage and Social Media

Hating on social media is bipartisan. Turning to common carriage analysis. Declare as matter of statutory announcement that they’re common carriers and hope that makes the regulation constitutional, as in Fl and Tex. Can that be right? No. Turner Broad. Sys. v. FCC says that the Court has to assess those judgments. Thomas once said that labeling a regulation a common carrier scheme “has no real First Amendment consequences.”

What about common law? Rationales are almost all debunked but one works.

“Affected with a public interest.” That’s not enough. It’s an empty category. Newspapers were critical for disseminating information, but that doesn’t deprive them of 1A protection for editorial judgments.

“Monopoly power.” That’s historically not been true. The root is not in 17th century English common law, but 20th century laws creating public utilities. Even if that were the case, should it make a difference to the 1A analysis? Not in Tornillo, even though most cities were one-newspaper towns at the time.

“Transportation/communication.” This is a useless category. Lumping things together doesn’t teach anything (Oliver Wendell Holmes). Too general to be helpful. There are tons of communications media that aren’t regarded as common carriers.

“Quid pro quo.” Section 230 as a quid pro quo. But not clear that common carriers are the beneficiaries of 230. Another statute enacted at the same time says “nothing in this section shall be construed to create interactive computer services as common carriers or telecom carriers.” There’s clearly some immunity for entities that aren’t common carriers.

“Holding oneself out as serving the entire public.” It’s an antifraud test, but easily evaded. DC Circuit says that FB, Google, etc. don’t hold themselves out as affording neutral, indiscriminate access and that net neutrality didn’t apply to any services involving editorial judgment.

The real motivation: syllogism, not 1A analysis.

Major premise: old regimes like common carriage must be constitutional.

Minor: new regulations of social media are like common carriage.

Conclusion: new regulations ok.

Major premise is problematic; SCt has never resolved. Precedents uphold access regulation only for media in which one actor exercises physical, not economic, control that social media lack. Invoking common carriage accomplishes nothing/serves as a distraction.

Lemley: What do you do with telephones? We clearly apply that to telephones.

A: dial-a-porn cases can help answer. Both sets of cases say that even a common carrier offering services, you can also offer video over which you exercise complete discretion. You can be a common carrier for only part of your services.

Lemley: but only b/c we put telephony and cable in different buckets. Why not exercise discretion over how and under what circumstances we deliver telephone calls?

A: is the logical implication that there are limits on that? Yes.

Interestingly, neither Fl nor TX bars discrimination in the ordinary sense—deplatforming and shadowbanning are not the same things. Not a true common carrier regulation.

Chris Newman: nondiscrimination in common carriage is about passage, not behavior on the vehicle/harassing other passengers.

A: agreed. The author of the 5th Circuit opinion said we reject constitutional challenges to nondiscrimination laws, but that’s about economic discrimination, not speech discrimination. That’s handwaving.

Nicholson Price, Empirical Studies of Medical AI Patents (w/ Mateo Aboy & Seth Raker)

Applications are up even after Bilski, etc. Grant rates dipped but then went back up. 3 of top 5 patent applicants are the 3 biggest MRI makers. Disclosure is only ok; universities do better. Predictions to contrary underestimated the cleverness of patent lawyers. We’ll get lots of patents anyway; people figure out ways over around and through doctrinal barriers.

Monday, July 10, 2023

Seen in my travels

 Good cafe name:

Cafe sign reading "The Breakfast Club"

A handbag that probably requires some explanation to today's students:

A handbag decorated with images of videotape cassettes bearing handwritten labels of well-known movies like Top Gun


Friday, April 07, 2023

27th Annual BTLJ-BCLT Symposium: From the DMCA to the DSA: Panel 3: Intended and Unintended Consequences of the DSA

 Moderator: Pamela Samuelson, Berkeley Law School

From Notice-and-Takedown to Content Licensing and Filtering: How the Absence of

UGC Monetization Rules Impacts Fundamental Rights       

João Quintais, University of Amsterdam with Martin Senftleben, University of Amsterdam

Human rights impact of the new rules. When we say notice and takedown is no longer extant in EU, that’s not entirely true—DSA has it. We look at safe harbors not from an industry perspective—allowing them to develop services regardless of what users upload—but from a user human rights perspective—we allow users to upload whatever they want and correct it later. DSA has a © interface that says insofar as there’s specific © legislation it is lex specialis and prevails over DSA. Thus, the safe harbor comes to an end w/r/t © content. Art. 17 instead controls for OCCSP systems. Licensing and filtering replaces safe harbor.

That has a human rights impact. Risk of outsourcing human rights obligation to private entities, and conceding these mechanisms by putting responsibility for correcting excesses in hands of users. Regulator is hiding behind other parties.

W/r/t platforms like YouTube, requirement of not allowing upload w/o licensing is a major intrusion on user freedom, leading to public demonstrations against upload filters that can’t distinguish b/t piracy and parody. DSA says you have to take care of human rights in proportionate manner in moderation/filtering. But regulator doesn’t do the job itself. Guardians of UGC galaxy are the platforms themselves. Regulator hides behind industry and says we’ve solved the issue.

Reliance on industry is core of Art. 17—cooperation b/t creative industry and platform industry. One industry sends info on works that should be filtered, and the platforms have to include that info in their filtering systems. But regulator says that this cooperation shouldn’t result in preventing noninfringing content—but how realistic is this? They aren’t at the table maximizing freedom of communication; they are at the table maximizing profit. That’s ok as a goal but these actors are not intrinsically motivated to do the job assigned to them.

Concealment strategy: Empirical studies show that users are not very likely to bring complaints; system excesses will stay under the radar. Legislator suggests a best practice roundtable among big players. ECJ has spoken in Poland decision; what the court did confirmed that this outsourcing/concealment strategy was ok, rubberstamping the approach. The Court says the filtering systems have to distinguish b/t lawful and unlawful content, but that’s an assumption and not a very realistic one. The incentive to filter more than necessary is higher than the incentive to maximize freedom of expression. The court says the filtering is only set in motion if rightsholders send a notification, but again the incentives are to send lots of notices.

Audit system could be a solution, involvement of member states could be a solution, but we have to discuss the issues openly.

Monetization is an area where the issues are particularly bad. YouTube, Instagram, TikTok are the subjects: an action of obtaining monetary benefit/revenue from UGC provided by the user. There are restrictions in DSA on demonetization. Most discussion has been about upload filters, but YT’s © transparency reports show that actually most of the action is not blocking via filtering—it’s mostly monetization through Content ID. 98.9% of claims are through Content ID, and 90% are monetized.

Art. 17 doesn’t say anything specific about monetization; it’s all about filtering and staydown. Provisions for fair remuneration for authors are very difficult to apply. Lots of actions are not covered by the regulation, especially visibility measures and monetization. DSA has two clear provisions covering statement of reasons for in platform complaint resolution/ADR, but most of what users can do is ex post.

Big platform practices change regularly. Content ID and Rights Manager (Meta) are the big hitters; you can get other third party solutions that intermediate b/t rightsholders and platforms like Audible Magic and Pex. Legibility of access to monetization in Content ID and Rights Manager: available only to large firms. If you take Poland decision seriously, it should only be filtered for manifestly infringing content, but these systems are designed to allow parameters below the legal threshold.

On the monetization side, it’s billed as ex post licensing; as a rule this is not available to small UGC creator, though there are exceptions. There is a lack of transparency; left to private ordering.

Human rights deficits: Misappropriation of freedom of expression spaces & encroachment on smaller creators’ fundamental right to ©. If a use is permissible and does not require permission, larger rightsholders can nonetheless de facto appropriating and being given rights over content for which they have no legal claim. Creates the illusion that there’s no expressive harm b/c the content stays up, but there’s unjustified commercial exploitation. UGC creator is often a © owner, with protection for that as a work. Only they should logically be allowed to monetize. Interferes w/ UGC creator’s fundamental right, but this is not a default option on the platform for historical reasons, leaving them only to ex post remedies, which are weak sauce.

Recommendations: bring these problems to light. Audit reports should focus on these questions. Human rights safeguard clause: must take care to protect parody, pastiche—if they pass the filter they should not lead to monetization. Confining filtering to manifestly infringing UGC also helps. German solution: collective licensing schemes w/a nonwaivable remuneration right for UGC creators, not just to industry players. Inclusion of creative users in a redesign of a more balanced monetization system.

An Economic Model of Intermediary Liability         

James Grimmelmann, Cornell Law School; Cornell Tech

Economic claims about effects of liability regimes are common. Chilling effects; whether platforms do or don’t have sufficient incentives to police content; claims that 230/DMCA don’t’ adequately balance free expression with safety concerns; etc. These are statements about incentives, but primarily policy arguments, not empirically tested. There are some empirical studies, but our project is to create an economic model to provide a common framework to compare arguments. This can help create predictions and visualize the effects of different rules. Mathematical model forces us to make explicit the assumptions on which our views rest.

Start w/question of strict liability v. blanket immunity; look at possible regimes; map out core elements of 512, DSA, and 230. Not going to talk about policy responses to overmoderation/must-carry obligations or content payment obligations.

Basic model: users submit discrete items of content. Each item is either harmful or harmless. Platform chooses to host or take down. If hosted, platform makes some money; society gets some benefits; if the content is harmful, third party victims suffer harm. Key: platform does not know w/certainty whether content is harmful, only the probability that it is. These are immensely complicated functions but we will see what simplification can do. [What happens if harmful content is profitable/more profitable than nonharmful content? Thinking about FB’s claim that content that is close to the line gets the most engagement.]

A rational moderator will set a threshold. Incorporates judgments about acceptable risk of harm in light of likelihood of being bad v benefits of content to platform and society.

The optimal level of harmful content is not zero: false positives and false negatives trade off. We tolerate bad content b/c it is not sufficiently distinguishable from the good, valuable content. Users who post and victims harmed may have lots of info about specific pieces—they know which allegation of bribery is true and which is not—but platforms and regulators are in positions of much greater uncertainty. Platform can’t pay investigators to figure out who really took bribes.

Under immunity, platform will host content until it’s individually unprofitable to do so (spam, junk, other waste of resources). This might result in undermoderation—platform’s individual benefit is costly for society. But it’s also possible that platform might overmoderate if platforms take stuff that’s not profitable down but was net beneficial for society. There is no way to know the answer in the abstract; depends on specifics of content at issue.

Focusing on undermoderation case: one common law and econ response is strict liability. This is always less than the benefit to society—it will always overmoderate content that would be unprofitable under strict liability but would be beneficial to society. This is Felix Wu’s theory of collateral censorship: good content has external benefits and is not distinguishable from bad from outside. If those two things are true, strict liability won’t work b/c platform only internalizes all harm, but not all benefit.

Other possible liability regimes: actual knowledge, when no investigation is required—this allows costless distinctions between good and bad. But does actual knowledge really mean actual knowledge or is it a shorthand for probabilistic knowledge of some kind? Intuition is that notices lower cost of investigation. Fly in the ointment: notices are signals conveying information. But the signal need not be true. When investigations cost money, many victims will send notice w/o full investigation. Turns out notices collapse into strict liability—victims send notices for everything. Must be costly to send false notices; 512(f) could have done this but courts gutted it. DSA does better job with some teeth to “don’t send too many false notices.” Trusted flagger system is another way to deal with it.

Negligence is another regime—more likely than not to be harmful. Red flag notice under DMCA. Gives us a threshold for platform action. Conditional immunity is different: based on total harm caused by the platform—if too much, platform is liable for everything. This is how the repeat infringer provisions of 512 work: if you fail to comply, you lose your safe harbor entirely. These can be subtly different. Regulator has to set threshold correctly: a total harm requirement requires more knowledge of the shape of the curve b/c that affects the total harm; the discontinuity at the edge is also different.

512 is a mix: it has a negligence provision; a financial benefit provision—if it makes high profits from highly likely to be bad content; repeat infringers. DSA has both actual knowledge and negligence regimes. Art. 23 requires suspension of users who provide manifestly illegal content, but only as a freestanding obligation—they don’t lose the safe harbor for doing it insufficiently; they simply pay a fine. 230 is immunity across the board, but every possible regime has been proposed. It is not always clear that authors know they propose different things than each other—negligence and conditional immunity look very similar if you aren’t paying attention to details.

Although this is simplified, it makes effects of liability rules very obvious. Content moderation is all about threshold setting.

Interventions   Rebecca Tushnet, Harvard Law School

Three sizes fit some: Why Content Regulation Needs Test Suites

Despite the tiers of regulation in the DSA, and very much in Art. 17, it’s evident that the broad contours of the new rules were written with insufficient attention to variation, using YouTube and Facebook as shorthand for “the internet” in full. I will discuss three examples of how that is likely to be bad for a thriving online ecosystem and offer a suggestion. 

The first issue is the smallest but reveals the underlying complexity of the problems of regulation. As Martin Husovec has written in The DSA’s Scope Briefly Explained, https://ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4365029,

Placement in some of the tiers is defined by reference to monthly active users of the service, which explicitly extends beyond registered users to recipients who have “engaged” with an online platform “by either requesting the online platform to host information or being exposed to information hosted by the online platform and disseminated through its online interface.” Art. 3(p). While Recital 77 clarifies that multi-device use by the same person should not count as multiple users, that leaves many other measurement questions unsettled, and Husovec concludes that “The use of proxies (e.g., the average number of devices per person) to calculate the final number of unique users is thus unavoidable. Whatever the final number, it always remains to be only a better or worse approximation of the real user base.” And yet, as he writes, “Article 24(2) demands a number.” This obligation applies to every service because it determines which bucket, including the small and micro enterprise bucket, a service falls into.

This demand is itself based on assumptions about how online services monitor their users that are simply not uniformly true, especially in the nonprofit or public interest sector. It seems evident—though not specified by the law—that a polity that passed the GDPR would not want services to engage in tracking just to comply with the requirement to generate a number. As DuckDuckGo pointed out, by design, it doesn’t “track users, create unique cookies, or have the ability to create a search or browsing history for any individual.” So, to approximate compliance, it used survey data to generate the average number of searches conducted by users—despite basic underlying uncertainties about whether surveys could ever be representative of a service of this type—and applied it to an estimate of the total number of searches conducted from the EU. This doesn’t seem like a bad guess, but it’s a pretty significant amount of guessing.

Likewise, Wikipedia assumed that the average EU visitor used more than one device, but estimated devices per person based on global values for 2018, rather than for 2023 or for Europe specifically. Perhaps one reason Wikipedia overestimated was because it was obviously going to be regulated no matter what, so the benefits of reporting big numbers outweighed the costs of doing so, as well as the stated reason that there was “uncertainty regarding the impact of Internet-connected devices that cannot be used with our projects (e.g. some IoT devices), or device sharing (e.g. within households or libraries).” But it reserved the right to use different, less conservative assumptions in the future. In addition, Wikipedia also noted uncertainty about what qualified as a “service” or “platform” with respect to what it did—is English Wikipedia a different service or platform for DSA purposes than Spanish Wikipedia? That question obviously has profound implications for some services. And Wikipedia likewise reserved the right to argue that the services should be treated separately, though it’s still not clear whether that would make a difference if none of Wikipedia’s projects qualify as micro or small enterprises.

The nonprofit I work with, the Organization for Transformative Works (“OTW”) was established in 2007 to protect and defend fans and fanworks from commercial exploitation and legal challenge. Our members make and share works commenting on and transforming existing works, adding new meaning and insights—from reworking a film from the perspective of the “villain,” to using storytelling to explore racial dynamics in media, to retelling the story as if a woman, instead of a man, were the hero. The OTW’s nonprofit, volunteer-operated website hosting transformative, noncommercial works, the Archive of Our Own, as of late 2022 had over 4.7 million registered users, hosted over 9.3 million unique works, and received approximately two billion page views per month—on a budget of well under a million dollars. Like DuckDuckGo, we don’t collect anything like the kind of information that the DSA assumes we have at hand, even for registered users (which, again, are not the appropriate group for counting users for DSA purposes). The DSA is written with the assumption that platforms will be extensively tracking users; if that isn’t true, because a service isn’t trying to monetize them or incentivize them to stay on the site, it’s not clear what regulatory purpose is served by imposing many DSA obligations on that site. The dynamics that led to the bad behavior targeted by the DSA can generally be traced to the profit motive and to particular choices about how to monetize engagement. Although DuckDuckGo does try to make money, it doesn’t do so in the kinds of ways that make platforms seem different from ordinary publishers. Likewises, as a nonprofit, the Archive of Our Own doesn’t try to make itself sticky for users or advertisers even though it has registered accounts.

Our tracking can tell us how many page views or requests we're getting a minute and how many of our page views come from which browsers, since those things can affect site performance. We can also get information on which sorts of pages or areas of the code see the most use, which we can use to figure out where to put our energy when optimizing the code/fixing bugs. But we can’t match that up to internal information about user behavior. We don’t even track when a logged in account is using the site—we just record the date of every initial login, and even if we could track average logins per month, a login can cover many, many visits across months. The users who talk to us regularly say they use the site multiple times a day; we could divide the number of visits from the EU by some number in order to gesture at a number of monthly average users, but that number is only a rough estimate of the proper order of magnitude. Our struggles are perhaps extreme but they are clearly not unique in platform metrics, even though counting average users must have sounded simple to policymakers. Perhaps the drafters didn’t worry too much because they wanted to impose heavy obligations on almost everyone, but it seems odd to have important regulatory classes without a reliable way to tell who’s in which one.

These challenges in even initially sorting platforms into DSA categories illustrates why regulation often generates more regulation—Husovec suggests that, “[g]oing forward, the companies should publish actual numbers, not just statements of being above or below the 45 million user threshold, and also their actual methodology.” But even that, as Wikipedia and DuckDuckGo’s experiences show, would not necessarily be very illuminating. And the key question would remain: why is this important? What are we afraid of DuckDuckGo doing and is it even capable of doing those things if it doesn’t collect this information? Imaginary metrics lead to imaginary results—Husovec objects to porn sites saying they have low MAUs, but if you choose a metric that doesn’t have an actual definition it’s unsurprising that the results are manipulable.

My second example of one size fits some design draws on the work of LLM student Philip Schreurs in his paper, Differentiating Due Process In Content Moderation: Along with requiring hosting services to accompany each content moderation action affecting individual recipients of the service with statements of reasons (Art. 17), platforms that aren’t micro or small enterprises have due process obligations, not just for account suspension or removal, but for acts that demonetize or downgrade any specific piece of content.

Article 20 DSA requires online platform service providers to provide recipients of their services with access to an effective internal complaint-handling system; although there’s no notification requirement before acting against high-volume commercial spam, even for high-volume commercial spam, platforms have to provide redress systems. Platforms’ decisions on complaints can’t be based solely on automated means.

Article 21 DSA allows users affected by a platform decision to select any certified out-of-court dispute settlement body to resolve disputes relating to those decisions. Platforms must bear all the fees charged by the out-of-court dispute settlement body if the latter decides the dispute in favor of the user, while the user does not have to reimburse any of the platforms’ fees or expenses if they lose, unless the user manifestly acted in bad faith. Nor are there other constraints on bad-faith notification, since Article 23 prescribes a specific method to address the problem of repeat offenders who submit manifestly unfounded notices: a temporary suspension after a prior warning explaining the reasons for the suspension.  The platform must provide the notifier with the possibilities for redress identified in the DSA. Although platforms may “establish stricter measures in case of manifestly illegal content related to serious crimes,” they still have to provide these procedural rights.

This means that due process requirements are the same for removing a one-word comment as for removing a 1 hour video: for removing a politician’s entire account and for downranking a single post by a private figure that uses a slur. Schreurs suggests that the process due should instead be more flexible, depending on the user, violation, remedy, and type of platform.

The existing inflexibility is a problem because every anti abuse measure is also a mechanism of abuse. There seem already to be significant demographic differences in who appeals a moderation decision, and this opens up the possibility of use of the system to harass other users and burden platforms, discouraging them from moderating lawful but awful content, by filing notices and appealing the denial of notices despite the supposed limits on bad faith. Even with legitimate complaints about removals, there will be variances in who feels entitled to contest the decision and who can afford to pay the initial fee and wait to be reimbursed. That will not be universally or equitably available. The system can easily be weaponized by online misogynists who already coordinate attempts to get content from sex-positive feminists removed or demonetized. We’ve already seen someone willing to spend $44 billion to get the moderation he wants, and although that’s an outlier there is a spectrum of willingness to use procedural mechanisms including to harass.

One result is that providers’ incentives may well be to cut back on moderation of lawful but awful content, the expenses of which can be avoided by not prohibiting it in the terms of service or not identifying violations, in favor of putatively illegal content. But forcing providers to focus on decisions about, for example, what claims about politicians are false and which are merely rhetorical political speech may prove unsatisfactory; the difficulty of those decisions suggests that increased focus may not help without a full-on judicial apparatus.

Relatedly, the expansiveness of DSA remedies may water down their realistic availability in practice—reviewers or dispute resolution providers may sit in front of computers all day, technically giving human review to automated violation detection but in practice just agreeing that the computer found what it found, thus allowing the human to complete thousands of reviews per day as Propublica has found with respect to human doctor review of insurance denials at certain US insurance companies.

And, of course, the usual anticompetitive problems of mandating one size fits all due process are present: full due process for every moderation decision benefits larger companies and hinders new market entrants. Such a system may also encourage designs that steer users away from complaining, like BeReal’s intense focus on selfies or Tiktok’s continuous flow system that emphasizes showing users more like what they’ve already seen and liked—if someone is reporting large amounts of content, perhaps they should just not be shown that kind of content any more. The existing provisions for excluding services that are only ancillary to some other kind of product—like comments sections on newspaper sites, for example—are partial at best, since it will often be unclear what regulators will consider to be merely ancillary. And the exclusion for ancillary services enhances, rather than limits, the problem of design incentives: it will be much easier to launch a new Netflix competitor than a new Facebook competitor as a result.

© specific rules are not unique: subject to same problem of legislating for YouTube as if YouTube were the internet. Assumes that all OSSCPs are subject to same risks. But Ravelry—a site focused on the fiber arts—is not YouTube. Cost benefit analysis is very different for a site that is for uploading patterns and pictures of knitting projects than for a site that is not subject-specific. Negotiating with photographers for licensing is very different than negotiating with the music labels, but the framework assumes that the licensing bodies will be functioning pretty much the same no matter what type of work is involved. Sites like the Archive of Our Own receive very few valid © claims per works uploaded, per time period, per any metric you want to consider, and so the relative burden of requiring YouTube-like licensing is both higher and less justified. My understanding is that the framework may be flexible enough to allow a service to decide that it doesn’t have enough of a problem with a particular kind of content to require licensing negotiations, but only if the authorities agree that the service is a “good guy.” And it’s worth noting, since both Ravelry and the Archive of Our Own are heavily used by women and nonbinary people, that the concept of a “good guy” is likely both gendered and racially coded, which makes me worry about its application.

Suggestion: Proportionality is much harder to achieve than just saying “we are regulating more than Google, and we will make special provisions for startups.” To an American like me, the claim that the DSA has lots of checks and balances seems in tension with the claim yesterday that the DSA looks for good guys and bad guys—a system that works only if you have very high trust that the definitions of same will be shared.

Regulators who are concerned with targeting specific behaviors, rather than just decreasing the number of online services, should make extensive use of test suites. Daphne Keller of Stanford and Mike Masnick of Techdirt proposed this two years ago. Because regulators write with the giant names they know in mind, they tend to assume that all services have those same features and problems—they just add TikTok to their consideration set along with Google and Facebook. But Ravelry has very different problems than Facebook or even Reddit. Wikipedia was big enough to make it into the DSA discussions, but the other platforms burdened most because they haven’t built the automated systems that the DSA essentially requires are now required to do things that Facebook and Google weren’t able to do until they were much, much bigger.

A few examples of services that many people use but not in the same way they use Facebook or Google, whose design wasn’t obviously considered: Zoom, Shopify, Patreon, Reddit, Yelp, Substack, Stack Overflow, Bumble, Ravelry, Bandcamp, LibraryThing, Archive of Our Own, Etsy.

The more complex the regulation, the more regulatory interactions need to be managed. Thinking about fifty or so different models, and considering how and indeed whether they should be part of this regulatory system, could have substantially improved the DSA. Not all process should be the same just like not all websites should be the same, unless we want our only options to be Meta and YouTube.

Q: Another factor: how do we define harm and who defines it—that’s a key that’s being left out. Someone stealing formula from Walgreens is harmful but wage theft isn’t perceived as the same harm.

Grimmelmann: Agree entirely. Model takes as a given that regulator has a definition of harm, and that’s actually hugely significant and contested. Distribution of harms is also very important—who realizes harm and under what conditions.

Q: Monetization on YT: for 6-7 years, there’s been monetization during dispute. If rightsholder claim seems wrong to user, content stays monetized until dispute is resolved. We might still be concerned over claims that should never have been made in the first place. YT has a policy about manual claims made in Content ID. Automatic matching doesn’t make de minimis claims; YT changed policy for manual claims so they had to designate start and stop of content experience and that designation had to be at least 10 seconds long. A rightsholder who believes that 9 seconds is too much can submit a takedown, but not monetize. Uploaders that sing cover songs have long been able to share revenue w/© owners.

Quintais: the paper goes into more detail, but it’s not clear that these policies are ok under new EU law. [Pastiche/parody is the obvious problem since it tends to last more than 10 seconds.] Skeptical about the monetization claims from YT; YT says there are almost no counterclaims. If the system can’t recognize contextual uses, which are the ones that are required by law to be carried/monetized by the uploader? A lot of monetization claims are allegedly incorrect and not contested. Main incentive of YT is pressure from rightsholders w/access to the system further facilitated by Art. 17.

Q: platforms do have incentives to care about fundamental rights of users. We wouldn’t need a team at YT to evaluate claims if we just took stuff down every time there was a claim. [You also wouldn’t have a service—your incentives are to keep some stuff up, to be sure, but user demand creates a gap as Grimmelmann’s paper suggests.]

Quintais: don’t fundamentally disagree, but Art. 17 leaves you in a difficult position.

Hughes to Grimmelmann: Why assume that when harm goes up, societal benefit goes down? Maybe as harm to individual goes up so does societal benefit (e.g. nude pictures of celebrities).

A: disagrees w/example, but could profitably put a consideration of that in model.

Monday, February 06, 2023

fake sponsored reviews are false even if review content is opinion

Federal Trade Comm’n v. Roomster Corp., --- F.Supp.3d ----, 2023 WL 1438718, No. 22 Civ. 7389 (CM) (S.D.N.Y. Feb. 1, 2023)

The FTC, joined by California, Colorado, Florida, Illinois, Massachusetts, and New York, sued Roomster, an internet-based room and roommate finder platform, and related individuals.  Defendants allegedly falsely represented that properties listed on the Roomster platform are real, available, and verified, and that they created or purchased thousands of fake positive reviews to support these representations and placed fake rental listings on the Internet to drive traffic to their platform. Here, the court refused to dismiss the complaint or to grant a protective order.

Roomster … purports to be an intermediary between individuals who are seeking rentals, sublets, and roommates. Defendants advertise that their platform, available through their website and corresponding mobile applications, allows users to post and search listings for living arrangements, including rental properties, room rentals, sublets, and roommate requests. 

However, Plaintiffs claim that users are more likely to get scammed on Defendants’ platform than to get an apartment. They explain that many of the listings on the Defendants’ platform are fake, and the platform is rife with fraudsters who have taken hundreds and thousands of dollars from its often-low-income users. In spite of this widespread fraud, they aver that Defendants did not and do not effectively verify listings or ensure that their listings are real or authentic. Instead, the Defendants post listings on their Roomster platform immediately upon request, as long as the street address associated with the listing is recognized by the platform. For example, during an undercover investigation, Defendants immediately accepted and published a fake listing where the address was a U.S. Postal Office commercial facility, not an apartment. That listing has remained active for several months.

Nonetheless, defendants claim that Roomster has “authentic” listings and that the Roomster Defendants “mak[e] sure the Roomster profiles and the listings on the site are complete, accurate, updated and yes...authentic.” Until they received notice of this investigation, defendants claimed to have “millions of verified listings” in a “safe community with real members worldwide.”

In addition, they allegedly paid and continue to pay for thousands of fake reviews of the Roomster platform to entice individuals to use the platform and sign up for paid membership. Defendants allegedly purchased over 20,000 reviews from one defendant who settled out, encouraging him to submit fake reviews to app stores in ways calculated to evade the stores’ processes for detecting fake or fraudulent reviews. This allegedly deceives potential users about the significant proportion of fake listings, and obscures real, negative reviews about the widespread fraudulent listings on the platform.

Defendants also, either directly or through their affiliates, allegedly placed ads for fake listings on various websites, including on Craigslist. These listings direct consumers to the app, and and encourage them to sign up and pay a fee to obtain information necessary to secure the rental—only to discover that the listing does not exist.

The FTC alleged Section 5 violations through (1) representing that certain reviews of the Roomster platform were truthful reviews by actual users and (2) representing that the listings are verified, authentic, or available. The states alleged violations of their respective UDAP laws.

First, the FTC acknowledged that it couldn’t get monetary relief after AMG. Any money would go to the states only.

Second, the court rejected defendants’ argument that their allegedly improper conduct ceased in 2018, giving the FTC no standing in court. Section 13(b) of the FTCA allows the FTC to file suit when it “has reason to believe” a defendant “is violating, or is about to violate, any provision of law enforced by the [FTC].” The complaint plausibly alleged ongoing violations. The remaining defendants argued that they had no knowledge that the settling defendant’s reviews might be inauthentic; that wasn’t an issue on which the court could take judicial notice, but it could take judicial notice of the fact that he admitted to his participation in the scheme alleged by the FTC and has been enjoined from engaging in this type of behavior.

Defendants’ conduct strongly suggests they were well aware that the reviews might not generated by genuine users of the platform. Martinez was able to produce thousands of 5-star reviews for Defendants. At one point, Defendants asked Martinez to post 800 reviews of their platform to the app stores, specifying he should only post 15 or 20 in a day. That Martinez had the ability to summon hundreds of five-star reviews of their platform at a moment’s notice, and with total control over when and how many would be posted at any one time, strongly suggests to a reasonable reader that the reviews were not being created by genuine, individual users of the platform.

But had defendants ceased their conduct? They argued that prior statements that the platform verifies or authenticates users had been removed, and the generation of fake reviews ended because of the injunction against their former collaborator. No way. While the Shire case said that the FTC couldn’t sue under §13 five years after Shire ceased the alleged conduct, and when it no longer owned the drug that its challenged conduct related to, Roomster’s platform continues to operate, and plaintifs plausibly alleged that statements about authentication, fake app store reviews, and fake listings on websites like Craigslist were necessary to defendants’ business. “Where the conduct in Shire had ceased five years prior to the FTC seeking the injunctive relief, here Defendants claim only that their improper verification claims were removed in early 2020—after they received notice of the ongoing FTC investigation.” But plaintiffs alleged that “in numerous instances and on various locations on their website,” defendants continue to represent that the listings are authentic. This couldn’t be resolved on a motion to dismiss, where the FTC has not conceded that violations were not ongoing, as it did in Shire. And the FTC didn’t allege only that Roomster only purchased reviews from that one defendant, only that they “often” did so. Other associates remained so that channel of misconduct was not “defunct or reformed.”

Separately, the FTC plausibly alleged that it had “reason to believe” that defendants were about to commit another violation. The question is whether there is a “realistic likelihood of recurrence,” which can consider “factors such as the degree of scienter involved; the isolated or persistent nature of past fraudulent acts; the defendants’ appreciation of wrongdoing; and the defendants’ opportunities to commit future violations.” Here, there was a realistic likelihood of recurrence alleged given defendants’ “pattern of willful and deliberate behavior over the course of several years, as well as the continued ownership and control of Roomster by the two named individual Defendants who run the company,” despite their knowledge of the investigation. For example, one named defendant personally “instructed [ ] Martinez to produce ‘lots of 5 star IOS app reviews’ ” and directed Martinez “to spread out the reviews to be ‘constant and random.’ ” The complaint also quoted emails in which defendants specified when and where precise numbers of allegedly fake reviews should be posted. Their continued ordering of reviews from Martinez even after notice of the investigation indicated that they didn’t appreciate the seriousness of the allegations against them. “And Defendants demonstrated a lack of candor with FTC investigators, claiming that they do not pay for reviews of the Roomster platform while they purchased 20,000 from Martinez alone.”

“Defendants clearly have opportunities to restart whatever conduct they may have stopped; they simply need to update their website to assert new false authentication claims.” And there’d be no bar to getting fake reviews from someone other than Martinez. “Recurring violations are hardly implausible where, as here, defendants retain control of the company and the capabilities allegedly used to violate the FTC Act.” The court noted defendants’ “strong pecuniary interest in restarting the alleged misconduct, as their business has generated tens of millions of dollars from users signing up for their paid subscription, allegedly enticed by the deceptive or misleading conduct described. … [W]ithout the renewed promises of authentication, positive reviews, and Craigslist referrals consumers are less likely to pay for subscriptions to the platform.”

And finally, “Defendants cannot moot the case or destroy the FTC’s standing by offering a stipulation to a permanent injunction if any illegal conduct is ongoing. The FTC is not obliged to accept their offer and it does not lose standing merely because it chooses to decline Defendants’ offer, genuine or not.” Defendants didn’t like that the FTC responded to AMG by partnering with the states to seek relief. That wasn’t improper.

Defendants next argued that Section 13(b) of the FTC Act is unconstitutional as an improper delegation of executive power to an independent agency whose commissioners cannot be removed at will by the president. It wasn’t. “[E]ven where Congress has legislated unconstitutional removal protections, an agency can still wield enforcement authority that was lawfully delegated.”

For now, the court also exercised supplemental jurisdiction over the state claims. The allegedly fraudulent reviews qualified as deceptive acts under the relevant UDAP laws, as did falsely advertising rental listings as “verified,” “authentic,” and “available.” The defendants didn’t argue about the latter, so the court only addressed fake reviews.

Defendants argued that plaintiffs didn’t allege injury, because §230 protected them against claims about scam losses. But, “while free users may see possible listings, users must sign up for a paid subscription in order to actually contact the listing creator about the rental. Plaintiffs plausibly allege consumers suffered financial harm when they paid for access to the Roomster platform based on the misleading or deceptive reviews.”

Defendants also argued that it would be unreasonable for consumers to rely on subjective user-supplied reviews when deciding whether they should purchase a paid Roomster account, so there were no UDAP violations. But the complaint alleged that reasonable consumers would be deceived “because the reviews appear to be, but are not, truthful representations made by actual users of the Roomster platform, and because they obscure authentic negative reviews.” Even if individual user review content comprised subjective opinions that can’t be actionable misrepresentations, that was irrelevant:

Here, the allegation is that the reviews are fraudulent because they are not opinions at all—they are fake, written by someone who was not a real customer and so who was in no position to offer an opinion. Misrepresentations that are false because they are not real—they were made up and paid for—can never by definition be “puffery.”

These reviews were allegedly not just actual reviews with undisclosed compensation for them, but “allegedly manufactured wholesale” (also not disclosed). Alleged large-scale manipulation of reviews that created a false and misleading impression of the number of positive reviews could be false advertising. “Even if Defendants had just paid real consumers to use and review the platform, as they claim, such conduct would still plausibly qualify as misleading or deceptive acts” because of the failure to disclose a financial relationship (citing a number of Lanham Act cases).

At a bare minimum, it would have been reasonable for consumers to assume that the existence of thousands of reviews of the Roomster platform meant that there are or had been thousands of actual users. And the presence of thousands of users on the platform would reasonably make a consumer more inclined to think she could find a rental on the platform and sign up for Roomster’s paid services (of course, if she knew that these reviews had been generated by the owners of the platform, she might be less inclined to sign up for these services).

In particular, New York sufficiently pled violations of its consumer protection laws. NY’s laws are territorial, prohibiting deceptive acts or false advertising conduct “in this state.” A deceptive transaction in New York will fall within the territorial reach of the law as long as “some part of the underlying transaction ... occurs in New York State.” Here, Roomster allegedly transacts business and has its principal place of business in New York. Roomster’s owners and co-founders, who also serve as Roomster’s CEO and CTO, reside in the district and transact business here. Plaintiffs plausibly alleged that “at least some part of the development, approval, implementation, and financing of the alleged misconduct happened, and is happening, in New York.”

Defendants argued that NY remedies for nationwide consumers would violate the Dormant Commerce Clause; this challenge was premature.

CDA § 230 didn’t immunize defendants from liability for their own misconduct, though the court acknowledged that they couldn’t be held liable for allegedly fake listings on their platform, nor the content of the reviews provided by their users. Defendants could be held liable for their own allegedly false claims that listings are “verified and authentic,” and they also allegedly arranged for third parties to create and post fake reviews about their website. “Defendants are alleged to have been involved in hiring the creators of the reviews, paying them to create the reviews …, and specifically instructing how and when the reviews should be posted. Similarly, insofar as Plaintiffs’ deception claims capture fake listings on other websites that direct consumers to the Roomster platform, such as Craigslist, Defendants are responsible as the creators [of] that unlawful content.” [There’s a covert agency argument buried in there, which I think is correct.]

The parties were unable to agree on the terms of a protective order for designating material as confidential.  Of note:

That certainly does not bother me. This court does not believe in protective orders, since parties abuse them by designating material that is manifestly not “trade secret” as “confidential” – which generally prevents the public from seeing things that will never be kept confidential on a summary judgment motion or at trial, but that are simply embarrassing or worse. …

So if the parties are unable to agree on the terms of a protective order, none will be issued, because this court will not impose one unilaterally. And if parties refuse to turn over documents unless on the ground that they are confidential but not subject to a protective order, the court will entertain a motion by the party requesting the documents for an order precluding the uncooperative party from making arguments that might be supported by the withheld documents, or an order deeming certain facts to be admitted by the non-producing party.

Thursday, August 11, 2022

IPSC Breakout Session 3, Language and Authorship/ownership

What Is the Relationship Between Language and Thought?: Linguistic Relativity and Its Implications for Section 230 and Copyright

Christopher S. Yoo

Cognitive linguistics says language may not be independent of thought: language shapes how we think/what we can think about. Very much a debate in the literature: Sapir-Whorf v. debunkers. “Thinking like a lawyer”: you become adept at thinking in certain ways and language is a part of that. Structure of a language: subject verb object; only eight options for order—only two use one of the options, and Klingon deliberately chose that one to be more exotic.

Contrast: Chomsky’s universal grammar. Children don’t get enough examples to do what they do with language. Stimulus alone isn’t enough.

New empirical studies: effects of language on directions, horizontal/vertical/size metaphors for time, lack of numbers in Piraha and inability to do math, feral children.

What does this have to do with law? 230: Roommates.com was the first exception for 230 because Roommates established categories for people to use. By creating a mandatory category structure, that was consistent w/ the idea that structuring a language has effects on the people who respond to it—a determinative component to doing that. Has implications for autocomplete and prompts, and other forms of AI.

Constructed languages: attempts to use copyright to protect them. Tolkien: C&D, but no lawsuits. Klingon: Axanar. Tasmanian Aboriginal Centre and palawa kani: trying to put fragments together to preserve it. Copyright claims attempted to preserve/protect/avoid splits.

Can’t © structure as idea, nor words as too small, but what about the area in between? A new alphabet, a set of words, a grammatical structure? Especially when done for dramatic purposes: should it be copyrightable? His conclusion: no protection for syntax but yes for the language as a whole.

Esperanto fragmented—people keep fiddling with it so it can’t become standardized. See the same complaint in open source software—everyone has to add a bell or whistle. Loglan, created to test Sapir-Whorf, also forked and had a copyright dispute. Palawa kani: asked Wikipedia to take the website about it down, don’t want anyone to use the language except natives until it’s fully reconstructed.

Software: machines aren’t limited by biology, but programmers use the structure of source code. Thinks there’s a difference between protecting SSO syntax and terms; a particular naming architecture might be protectable.

Can we rely on language creator to keep it optimally permeable? Unix died from forking into 20 different versions; no one had the authority to assert control of it. Benefits of widespread use need to be balanced with potential to squelch competition.

Josh Sarnoff: say more about merger. Once it becomes a language, you’ve lost ability to control it.

A: if you create a language that’s entirely yours, you never lose control. It didn’t develop organically. A business code communicating within a community designed to be closed. If public function, no, but if private, yes. Merger is off the table. [So if you bring kids up speaking this language, you will definitely have lost control.]

RT: “Unix died from forking into 20 different versions; no one had the authority to assert control of it.” Replace Unix with English. Why didn’t English die from being control-free?

A: Software is less forgiving than spoken language.

RT: ok, then this is two papers, one about software and one about spoken language.

A: He finds the comparison compelling.

Samuelson: CJEU decided that SAS language was not something that they had a © interest in; they developed the language so their userbase could make programs to run on the platform. WPL took programs written by SAS users and executed them on an alternative platform. That’s a good example b/c it’s a completely made-up language; she thinks that GvO indicates that users’ investment in constructing programs within the language matters. She thinks there’s more flex in merger than Yoo does.

A: author of Esperanto consigned it to the public domain. Authors have options: they can surrender to the public; they can assert complete control; or something in between. SAS: does inviting people in some of the way invite them in all the way? His conclusion: people are better off with more options/ability to say this far and no further.

Felix Wu: Not sure sees 230. If it were true that Roommates.com were based on structuring the language, that doesn’t really distinguish the dating site cases. Don’t think you need it. Feels very different from constructed languages.

A: if you’re just a passthrough and not speaking yourself then you get immunity but if you structure the discourse then you don’t.

Chander: more on Yoo’s side.

RT: very much not: you can absolutely structure discourse and stay immune.

Yoo: You’re protected by the good-faith provision, but it’s complicated.

[Sites are immune from liability for content supplied by users. Ravelry will remove your non-knitting/crochet-related posts. It is covered by 230, including the immunity for user-supplied content, not just the good faith (c)(2) provision, and it should be. The paper may well be more detailed, but there is a difference between an affordance and a requirement. The other dating sites offered affordances; on the facts alleged in Roommates, the site required selection within regulated categories, thus forcing people to select descriptors the law didn’t allow them to select, which was attributable to the site because the site decided what was mandatory. Affordances can also make things more likely/thinkable but as long as fields are optional and are only illegal if the user misuses them, the current jurisprudence means 230 protects them.]

The Right to Speak a Brand: Rethinking the Interaction Between Trademarks and Speech in the Age of Expressive Branding

Alvaro Fernandez-Mora

Tweak of original mark to convey parody/comment: adictas three cocaine stripes v. adidas three stripes; enjoy capitalism in Coca-Cola font; Lost-it in Post-it font. TM owners make dilution and confusion claims.

There’s a lot of literature and case law; focus of courts and scholars is on the extent to which freedom of expression ought to operate. Compare: TM registration, FACK JU GÖHTE—courts finally said that freedom of expression operates in registration as well. Seeing a convergence in application and infringement: freedom of expression as sword, not just shield. Compare: public law measures encroaching on TM use, such as plain packaging for cigarettes (probably impossible in US) which is now the norm in many jurisdictions—prevents use of registered TM. Rightholder tries to challenge validity of rules on freedom of expression basis. South Africa’s prohibition on depicting healthy, happy babies on infant formula containers.

Lessons from this taxonomy: it’s a two-way street. It’s not about balancing incommensurable property v. speech, but speech v. speech which is more feasible. TM can both limit and validate TM rights.

In response to question from Ramsey: Would lead to some situations in which unauthorized use would damage expression function of TM, but very very rarely.

Rothman: we have speakers using someone else’s TM, and speakers using their own, which seem like they’re more similar than you’re presenting. What does validation of TM rights mean in this situation? You need a functioning TM to have a valid TM; can you reject it even if it functions as a mark? The First Amendment comes in only if it functions as a mark (so far).

Labeling and regulation—limiting uses of the mark—are two different things, but they don’t limit TM rights [against other people]—they’re just part of the regulatory machine. In some instances they limit what people can do; in other cases it’s compelled speech. [Here I guess I’m actually with the brand theorists: restrictions on using trade dress/requirements to only use block text seem very likely to impact the ability to build goodwill/secondary meaning. But it’s a question deserving an empirical investigation]

A: maybe grounding is a better term in US discourse than validating. The argument is the huge warning label affects the rightsholder’s ability to convey its own branding message in the tiny remaining amount of the package, but it’s true they aren’t identical.

Jake Linford: how different is the concept “use” from the concept “speech” in your conception? We speak of use as a mark/use of a mark. But is that the same as a speech act in terms of what the owner’s rights are, a third party’s, the government’s?

A: fuzzy distinction [I think that use and speech are identical here—if not used to communicate, then not speech and not a use as a mark at the same time].

Creation, Room 90

The Neglected Role of the Family in Copyright

Tal Itkin

Literature emphasizes social environment’s effects on authors, but rarely discusses immediate family’s effects on authors. Psychological research supports impact of family. Intimacy defines the influence of the relationship.

Many jurisdictions accept special relationship between author and work and give the author control greater than a spouse would have over other property acquired during the marriage. In most cases, the spouse doesn’t contribute copyrightable creativity. Argument: spouse’s contribution should not be seen through copyright law but through family law. Ownership should require a lower burden of proof: comes from the relationship between the spouses and not from the connection to the creation.

Rosenblatt: compare treatment of inheritance where US © law treats inheritance very differently than many other rights/properties.

A: her concern is divorce law, though comparison is worthy.

Gerhardt: compare right of publicity, moral rights?

A: family supplies raw material for work of art. The moral rights can be seen in some cases as joint, but that will be controversial

The Revolution Has Arrived: AI Authorship and Copyright Law

Ryan Abbott and Elizabeth Shubov

UK has clearly allowed AI authorship for a while, but AI authorship has not been any good for so long there was no real risk of infringement/point in litigating. But the US has not. Recent patent case: patents must come from humans. Seeking cert on that. In ©, the cases are about spiritual mediums and the monkey selfie.

Neither the Act nor the Constitution defines authors; corporations can be authors; so who’s to say a program can’t be an author, especially given that the standard for originality is so low. WFH: an AI can’t sign a written contract or be an employee, so it doesn’t really fit. The machine has no rights, so there’s no worry about exploiting it.

Arguments against: machines can’t create, but that seems technically unsound. Only the thing the person doing is the sort of thing that ought to be protected. But we don’t really know what people are doing; people in philosophy of mind and computing think that what the computer and the mind are doing is very similar—generative algorithms. Consequentialist benefits of just protecting human creativity: relational—it’s good for people to create. But the history of © law is about encouraging creation and dissemination of creative works, and if we happen to help some authors along the way that’s good. AI doesn’t need incentives to create, but that’s a straw man b/c you will encourage people to make and use generative AIs that make creative works, and these can be expensive and also you need incentives to disseminate. Denying © protection sets up a 2-tiered system where Marvel will be able to generate a movie that people will love, but won’t be able to do that and keep © even if the human-involved version is less efficient and less good.

Fagundes: Worth pointing out that all creativity is mediated by some technology. The camera does work for the “author.” But who is the person?

A: the AI should be the author.

Fagundes: WFH seems analogous. But it’s not a given that a visual artifact has to have a ©--Meshwerks, Corel.

A: people like works that they value as creative works. Now AI is finally likable and tech people are making lots of AI art.

Fagundes: if likable and cool, where are the incentive needs?

A: To get more?

Paul Goldstein: there are differences, like the inevitability of death for a human. These programs may be costly, but that points to patents or even sui generis scheme to promote investment in AI, but not giving protection to products created at the cost of electricity.

A: you have to pay someone to make this if a person does it, but if a machine does it, you don’t, but you still need incentives to distribute. Could do it sui generis/

RT: notable that you just said that people are “making” art with AI. But your avowed position is that the AI is the author. Freudian slip?

I’m kind of with the artists: Marvel should have to pay the occasional human to get a ©.

Independent creation: when you can’t trace, which is true for humans, then it may be justifiied to give ©, on a sort of tie-goes-to-the-runner principle, but we can trace exactly what the inputs were for AI even if we don’t know why it ended up generating this particular image.

A: But people train on datasets as artists; all creation is remixed from what’s come before. A machine that has trained on 650 million images creates something that looks original.